I’ve been unmotivated to write any entries for the past couple of months, because I’ve spent a lot of energy on my personal/professional life, and that took a lot of time. In summary, I’m doing contract/consulting work for a while back at Brontes with my old office-mates. It’s been 3 weeks doing that, and it has been real fun. It’s felt like a homecoming, in a way. I’ll blog more about it later. Let’s first get to the poisonous jerks who are gangrenes.
The gentoo-dev mailing list has seen a lot of activity in the past couple of days. The noise-to-signal ratio has been pretty much infinite. The thread starts with kingtaco’s request for a status update on the package manager spec. The usual suspect (is there ever any other with the ability to rile so many people up?) at work here: one Ciaran McCreesh.
The story is the same. You have someone who’s super smart at technical things. Ciaran probably truly believes that his posts are technical. He may not even see that he comes off like a jack-ass more than half the time (settle down, fanboys). I’ve been observing his behaviour in this most recent thread, and I’ll be perfectly frank: he is an asshole, most of the time. He brings a double standard to the table: it’s NOT acceptable for you to make a mistake, and if you do, you need to apologise repeatedly. He, himself, is above making mistakes. And if he makes one, he is above acknowledging such trivialities. Apologies? Those are what other people do. If you say something, you better be prepared to highlight the relevant syllables in the relevant words of the relevant sub-clauses in the relevant paragraphs of the relevant subsections of the relevant chapters of the relevant documentation. If he says something, you better be happy with “go look it up.” Of course there are no personal attacks _from_ him. Those only exist in this world in one direction: _to_ him (see above about apologies). And finally, he’s happy taking something that’s partly applicable to a small part of a group of people and paint the entire group with that brush. Don’t you even THINK about painting him so broadly (see above about the relevant documentation!).
And so, this poisonous behaviour has been a fixture of Gentoo for a number of years. Is he technically proficient, even superior? I don’t think you’ll find dissent there. The point that most people make is that that is not a currency exchange for bad behaviour. And they are right, it is not. The fact is that the gentoo-dev mailing list is a community. A community is made up of people. Thus, to be a part of that community, is by necessity to interact with the people in it. There is a fair number of people who look beyond all his vitriol to his technical merits. But those are not the people with whom he has a problem. It’s the other x% of the population.
It’s a waste of time, you see, to question him on any of the things he does or says. It’s perfectly fine, however, for you to waste your own time gathering all the evidence to lay at his feet because you said something (that he may even agree with). And, every week, there’s someone who plays right into his hands. And every week someone else gets frustrated.
The above paragraphs are after a tiring, frustrating day where all I’ve been dealing with is tired, frustrated developers about Ciaran. I’m trying my best to be objective on this.
Ciaran is not the devil incarnate. I don’t think he is inherently evil, or inherently out to derail anyone who is not part of his circle of approved people. Rather, I think a number of factors are at play. The root factor is a mystery to me — his behaviour as a developer changed from when he first became a dev to the day he got kicked out. It’s a night and day thing. He retained his sarcasm. But his cynicism increased by orders of magnitude. And with that, the way he addressed people changed.
Most people, when they get kicked out of a project, go away. He did not. To his credit, he stayed, and still is very generous with the products of his labours. He gives back to Gentoo, a lot of good, strong technical stuff. The PMS, when it is done, I have full confidence will be a rock-solid document. The devmanual that was his intiative is a good example of such rock-solidity. Paludis as a complete independently developed package manager is another good example of his capabilities. In all three cases, I’ll note that he’s not the soloist. That he has a lead role in all three is without question, though. And the people who work with him on those projects display a fierce loyalty to him.
So obviously, he knows how to interact in a respectful and civil manner. One can only assume that he chooses not to. Is it a lead-role thing? Could be, I don’t know. Is it a personal issue he has in real life? Could also be, I don’t know. I’ve never met him in person. Those who have seem to come away with a fairly pleasant impression of him. Whenever I have worked with him in gentoo development, I have come away with a favourable impression of him. While I like him on a personal level, I can’t help but shake my head in frustration at his antics on the mailing lists.
The long and the short of it is that there are calls for silencing him on the mailing list by banning him. As tactless, jerky, dickheady, half-truthy, vague as he gets on the list, I don’t think that that is the way to solve “the ciaranm problem.” I’m not alone in my belief that trolls should not be fed. Thus, if you perceive him to be trolling, don’t take the bait. Trolls feed off the attention they get (and ciaran certainly does, too), so the best thing to do is to not give them any. Banning him also does not change the culture that gentoo dev has adopted.
Numerous times just today, people have preferred to assume the worst in others, and proceeded to attack them. The name-calling results shortly thereafter. The real gangrene is that culture that enables this sort of behaviour, the one that tolerates that one dev can insult another (“dickwad”, “dickhead”, “fuckwad” are examples that immediately come to mind), blaming that developer for not doing *exactly the thing that they did*. Mercifully, that particular poisonous individual left the project. Yet, he should have faced consequences. He behaved reprehensibly and then walked away, with nary a consequence. He should have been kicked (there were multiple instances of that sort of abuse from him)!
And yes, he was part of the larger ciaranm circle of people, but that is besides the point.
What is not besides the point is that Gentoo developers every day continue to be rude, disrespectful, insulting, and back-stabbing with each other and users, and there are no corrective measures taken.
I submit to you, my fine Gentoo readers, that the culture of gentoo is what needs to change. These sorts of behaviours should not be tolerated, and their perpetrators disavowed. Not as a matter of policy, bureaucracy and red-tape, but as a matter of common human decency.
In part 2 I will endeavour to trace how this culture got to where it is.
Agree totally!
Everyone involved with gentoo should watch this presentation: http://video.google.it/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645
Something must be going on with gentoo that isn’t good. We have gone from 6 gentoo boxes to 2 which are scheduled to be replaced sometime soon.
Don’t what happened with those folks, but it sure ran us out :-(.
Indeed. Great post, Seemant. It’s interesting that we still have the same situation I wrote about back in December, and the situation still hasn’t changed. It’s repeated itself at least three more times. And yes, it’s time to do something about it.
http://planet.gentoo.org/developers/nightmorph/2006/12/01/the_fubar_is_killing_me
So, there are two options: “turn the other cheek” — while not in so many words, this is what you’re advocating, and this is obviously the hardest thing to do. And it’s possibly a misapplication of the principle (which my own morals point to what I should do most of the time). The other option is to do something more active, and this is what I feel (at this time) that needs to be done — Gentoo simply should not tolerate someone who is known for causing dissent, anger, and flare-ups within the community and within the developer community.
It wouldn’t be tolerated in a professional workplace, and it wouldn’t be tolerated in one’s family or group of real-life friends.
Anyway, I like your thoughts, and will think more on them, as maybe there’s more than just the two options.
An interesting theory, but are you honest enough to admit that what really happened was that your old friend Daniel Robbins was looking for a quick power grab and decided to go on the attack against the first target he could find?
Seemant, sorry but your blog itself is systematic of the problem. Gentoo has constantly accepted the bad behavior by inaction or lengthy decisions that result in nothing. No matter how brilliant Master Ciaran is, he should have been banned for repeated offences. From where I stand, Daniel saw this and tried to do something about it.
Seemant i believe you are right but blog posts from separate devs do not also solve the problem.
What council have to say about that? Devrel?…
Seemant, all
I as user and their userrep for Gentoo, am very sad to see that I’m not the only one to see this behavior. And you probably know this much more than I do, as I’m only following the internal issues for about a year or so. I even volunteered to userreps to try and help some way, but it seems not really possible.
I’m afraid, that if this keeps going on, then distributions such as Sabayon (which is totally Gentoo according to lxnay) will attract more users as those distros would hide all the problems with core foundation behind the curtains. Then what really scares me, is that Gentoo will become a Debian of Ubuntu, which is not a nice place to be from PR standpoint.
As I also suggested on my blog, there probably some strict measures should be taken to assure that community keeps clean and respectful (such as “probation period” for newcomers).
If such behavior keeps having place without being taken care of, I’m afraid the following will happen:
0. People will not enlist to Gentoo anymore – dev community will stop evolving.
1. Good developers would leave the project and would not contribute to it directly anymore
2. Good people who keep other people motivated will leave
3. Users will abandon to other distros
4. Forks will appear *and be actually better*, or become what Gentoo should’ve been.
I really hope council have some ideas for trying to solve the issue.
Alex.
Fox3,
I’m afraid I don’t know how that’s pertinent to this case — I’d love to hear some more detailed insight from you.
—
Josh,
I’m not specifically advocating turn the other cheek. I’m advocating not acknowledging poisonous behaviour. In other words, when Ciaran behaves like the spoilt child (see Ciaran’s own comment below yours, where he beautifully exemplifies what I’ve said about him), then he should be treated as such — that is to say, he should simply not be acknowledged. When he speaks in an appropriate manner, then he should be acknowledged.
Some have argued that he is not a child. I argue that if he behaves like a spoilt one, he gets seen like one and should thus be treated like one.
—-
Ciaran,
Thanks for illustrating my “interesting theory.” š My blog post was not about Daniel (part 2 will have something on him), it was specifically about you.
—
night.day,
You’re right, I am part of the problem. I’m partly responsible for Ciaran’s behaviour, because I was the one who recruited him in the first place. As for what Daniel tried to do on the list: stay tuned for part 2 of the post.
—
Constantine,
I wanted to provide as objective a view as I could.. By doing so in public, then, I can be corrected by any side. Additionally, because this is a blog which allows anonymous commenting, anyone can state their views with safety, which is not possible on the mailing lists or irc.
As to what DevRel and the Council are doing about it — I do not personally know, for they haven’t informed us yet. I would suppose that they just need some time to internally discuss ths issue (if they, indeed, deem it worthy of discussion, which again I do not know).
—-
Alex,
Your comment is a perfect segue into part 2.
Thanks for the commments, everyone.
As someone who is just a user without any inside knowlege whatsoever, I perhaps should keep my mouth shut but I was never good at doing that… š I do read gentoo-devel, mainly for laughs because some of the flamewars are highly entertaining, but that’s it.
I find it a bit odd that you speak of devrel in the third person, you did know that you are listed as a member? (Yes, yes, I know, as a recruiter. I don’t know how you’re organised.)
As one who sees this from the outside, the feeling one gets is that devrel is either unable or unwilling to do anything about the entire sitation. (And I’m not just talking about ciaranm here.) About the only thing I’ve seen that is even remotely related to this is an extremely defensive post from kloeri in the great flamewar on flameeyes’ blog.
This is not an attack on christel, although it could be seen as one, if you already made your mind up. She is listed as conflict resolution and I would think less of her if she did say anything. I just wanted to point that out. Conflict resolution is not something that should be performed in public, IMHO.
Just recently there was a discussion between drobbins and ciaranm on gentoo-devel. It is probably the only time (I’ve seen) ciaranm addressed as an adult and he also responded in a fairly adult manner to drobbins’ questions. That should mean something, shouldn’t it?
I don’t know ciaranm at all so I cannot possibly be a part of his “circle of people”. My sympathy is slightly on his side, though. If you can’t post anything without getting jumped at, it’s very easy to see every comment as being antagonistic and thus act accordingly. I get the feeling that if he would post something tomorrow, stating that it’s March and not April, someone would jump on this and try to make it wrong.
As I said in the beginning, I probably shouldn’t hit send as I don’t know anything about what’s going on behind the scene.
In any case, if you see this, I did hit send and I’m looking forward to part two…
—quote—
I submit to you, my fine Gentoo readers, that the culture of gentoo is what needs to change. These sorts of behaviours should not be tolerated, and their perpetrators disavowed. Not as a matter of policy, bureaucracy and red-tape, but as a matter of common human decency.
—quote—
Ubuntu has this right and may be worth modeling after. They have a code of conduct[1] that they ENFORCE, and they have all devs gpg-sign and submit said code to their bug system[2] (plus anyone else in the non-dev community who wishes to do so). That way, when you get kicked for violating the code of conduct, it is easy to show that you broke the rules you agreed to.
[1] – https://launchpad.net/codeofconduct/1.0.1
[2] – https://launchpad.net/codeofconduct
Personally, I miss the days when Gentoo was like Cheers and less like the Peoples Court.
The problem is that the PMS period of these lasts not the usual 2-14 days but years, probably they should be medicated?
It sounds like ciaranm has some trolling/flamebaiting tendencies and that other gentoo devs have to urge to feed him… Definitely watch the google video link:
http://video.google.it/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645
“Seemant, sorry but your blog itself is systematic of the problem.”
Yeah, nice work seemant, and you just called ciaranm an asshole and a jackass. You’re so professional.
just_another_gentoo_user,
I didn’t realise I am still listed as a recruiter. I am a back-up ombudsman, but even then it’s in a rather diminished and unofficial capacity. I haven’t done any recruiting at all in recent times and am not even on the alias. The website, it seems, contains outdated information. The only service I’ve truly made myself available for is that of advisor to devrel personnel. There are some on the team that take me up on that, and others don’t, and that arrangement works just fine for me.
David,
If you read my post carefully, you’ll see that I haven’t labeled Ciaran any one broad way. I have praised him where due, and called him out where due.
If your point is merely about my choice of words, then consider that point taken. š
—
Corey,
I agree with you: Ubuntu started off on the right foot on that one. Gentoo rather stumbled its way into this current mess. How do they handle their problem users, do you know?
—
Part of what I, personally, want to try and see is: what do you do once you have a set of poisonous personalities in the project. I still encourage people (devs and users alike to share their views on any of this, with the added protection of anonymity should you choose it), and vent away. However, what is the real long-term solution?
(wrt how Ubuntu handles things) Long ago I heard Jeff Waugh talk about this.. The code of conduct is often brought up as a way to keep people in check when a conversation gets too heated, and people tend to respect that. If a person becomes a problem, then they can be banned. Granted, I’m sure that such moves are debated there as they are with Gentoo, but they are easier to execute on.
Now, the difference is that with Ubuntu the code was made a part of the foundation. Putting it in place for Gentoo would obviously cause a stir and not be too popular with the group of thugs it would end up providing enforcement against. This, in my mind, is just pathetic. It shouldn’t have to be a twist of the arm to get people to agree to be civil and nice to one another. If someone has a problem with that then they need to get out of their parents basement a little more, take some pills, or both.
People won’t always agree, and Gentoo has proven that you’ll never get 100% approval on anything, so arguments are natural. However, there becomes a point at which we can all see an argument becomes ego-driven and will serve no purpose to push one agenda over another. If someone consistently crosses that line then they are not being very constructive.
Take you and I for example.. We disagree on the basis of what Gentoo should provide, its mission, etc. Thats fine to disagree. I still respect you because you deserve that respect by default (everyone does). And you look good in a sport coat. When someone can not provide that respect towards one another, kick them out.
Anyway, I think GNOME was considering a similar change at one time too, and it caused quite a stir. IMO, the only way it will happen is for someone to assert authority and make it happen. (cabal!! omg!) Is it right? Probably not.. But the current methods of operation haven’t been working for the past couple of years, either..
Cheers
As a user the only thing I can say is that I feel disgusted after reading the complete thread on the dev-list. At the same time I really wonder how Ciaranm manages to get any real work done with all those posts on the dev-list.
For me it is clear that making the rejoined founder of the Gentoo-project quit the project is a disgrace and very bad for the public image. His final statement is found here: http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_143167.xml
–partial quote–
Hopefully someone(s) will eventually wake up and start moving this project in the right direction.
I’m going to resign and focus on more meaningful uses of my time, as I find the project unbearable at the moment and it would take a tremendous amount of my time to get it to the point where I would
actually enjoy being here.
-Daniel
–end quote—
well stated over all seemant
looking forward to part 2
I do hope this ‘poison’ thats causing
gentoo to be avoided by alot of good
people (including myself)
I do realize no one likes doing whats
required to clean it up but sometimes
it has to be done
if this was a business it would of
gone under already due to horrible PR
but also with a business generally
you have a single person directing
it which helps considerably
and also if someone doesn’t act in a
way that would be good for business
in that their not working or just
being a general ass they get fired
period thats all there is to it
basiclly what im getting at some people
are here to work not to be insulted
good luck tho hope you don’t have to
file for bankruptcy
lol i have just read that robbins got resigned. That is really pity and also feels awefull. When announced that Robbins was back to gentoo it was a moment of hope that better days are coming. I’m disappointed and a bit scared about the project…
Right now, as a user with the prospect to become a dev, i don’t know if it really matters the story to stay just between us or make a post to slashdot for that…
Really disappointed especially from the members of council who cant take an action and just sit back watching everyone flaming. Oh wait. Even council members leave the board. bb flameeyes… :/
If you want opinions of an (ex)user, here you go. š I was seriously considering applying to be a Gentoo dev a while back (whether it’s a huge loss to anyone that I never did is highly debatable). After seeing the atmosphere of the dev world, I didn’t bother. I eventually stopped using Gentoo entirely, for this and other reasons. Why would anyone want to be a part of this? Life is far too short to waste time dealing with unpleasant people. It seems to be only a vocal minority that’s a problem, but that’s all it takes sometimes. It’s like a room with hundreds of decent, friendly people, and a few screaming children running up and down the aisles; most people can’t tolerate it.
When dev/ex-dev flamewars spill onto the forums and Gentoo user blog syndicates, it becomes public. This is very harmful to Gentoo’s image. You’re apparently bleeding devs and the word is constantly that there are dev shortages everywhere, and I guarantee you’re bleeding users or turning potential new users away. If potential devs can look forward to flamewars and being crapped on regularly, how can you expect to attract new ones? Users on the other hand may not matter, in one sense, but how many devs didn’t start as users? Userbase = future devbase.
Getting along with others is something that most people learn in kindergarten. If you’re smart enough to program a computer, you’re smart enough to know when what you’re saying is inappropriate. To pretend or act otherwise is insulting, and to allow other people to act otherwise is silly.
People should be treated like adults, and held accountable for their words and actions. I’m sure this is all blatantly obvious to 99% reading this; it’s puzzling why nothing is ever done about it. There’s no reason disagreement or even heated disagreement can’t be done respectfully, except that people CHOOSE to act disrespectfully. That choice says everything you need to know. Why would (or should) anyone spend time thinking about WHY someone is like this, or what their motivations are, etc.? How is it relevant? It doesn’t change anything.
Long term solutions?
1. Forcibly remove everyone who’s ruining the community, assuming anyone thinks the community is important. Unless you’re dealing with the Stephen Hawking of programming, there’s no one who’s irreplaceable. People will step up to take the place of those removed if the community is worth being a part of. If not, well you were screwed anyways. People expelled from the community should have no say in anything. Pushing people away with one hand and welcoming them with the other doesn’t solve anything.
Or if you like:
2. Fork the distro. Sometimes it almost looks like you’re headed in this direction, to be honest. So have Gentoo (decent tools written by decent people), and Jerktoo (“really good” tools written by obnoxious people). Whichever does better wins. I’d like Gentoo, personally.
Just my opinion, for what it’s worth (i.e. very little). It doesn’t seem that anything is getting better in Gentoo-land, in fact the opposite. I still keep an eye on it for sentimental reasons and I’d love to come back some day if things get better. I’m not going to post any more comments here, just wanted to chime in.
Brian,
In all seriousness, how do you forcibly remove anyone in the virtual world of the internet pipes? Isn’t it just an invitation to play a game of whack-a-mole at that point? There’s an inexhaustible list of email addresses that that person could use or borrow. Besides that, what happens when legitimate people get mistaken for that person?
Since seemant asked me to comment here what we discussed on IRC, here it is:
While I can understand that some people get pissed off by the behaviour of *, reacting on those provocations is exactly what he wants.
This is because reacting angrily to those provocations is a sign of weakness and * gets the feeling that he’s strong, that he’s the one who dictates, who is always right, etc.
So, if you just ignore how he says something and really try to understand what he says, he usually stops provoking.
This WORKSFORME š
Fill in * as appropriate.
I said I wouldn’t post again, but I can’t keep my mouth shut.
Seemant: Wish I knew. š I’ve dealt with trolls in the past at other projects; generally it’s a matter of damage control. You ban a troll by whatever (limited) technical means you have, and then either 1) They stay away, and you win; 2) They come back but change their behavior so as not to be discovered (i.e. stop trolling), and you win; 3) They come back and keep up the same behavior, in which case you ban them again, and again, and again, and you win, though it’s a hassle; 4) They’re really smart, and come back and toe the line, in which case you still win to some extent, though it can get messy. But that kind of mess is better than the mess where trolls have free reign. And generally someone with an ego big enough that they refuse to stop trolling when you ask them nicely, isn’t going to be able to help himself in the future either.
If someone wants to screw with you, then they’re going to find a way, but if you can reduce the problem to something manageable then you can put it aside. Doing SOMETHING is better than nothing, even if it doesn’t work 100%. It shows you care about the community, that everyone is on the same side, that certain behavior is discouraged and that people are willing to back that up with actions. People won’t feel like they have to retaliate to trolling because they know they’re backed up by people with authority. When people take things into their own hands, it gets messy and it continually escalates.
Just my opinion of course.
dev-zero: Most people simply don’t have thick skins. Not to say that’s how it should or shouldn’t be, but it’s an accurate description of people. Everyone should make some effort to tolerate unpleasant people; we’d never get along otherwise. But no one should have to put up with incessant bullying or people being deliberately disrespectful or destructive rather than constructive criticism. There’s no excuse not to be respectful of your peers and no reason to have to tolerate it. I would certainly never tolerate it, and the devs who quit obviously couldn’t or wouldn’t either.
I more-or-less agree with Brian.
And I think people like ciaranm are the focal point of this kind of behavior. But it’s weird.
As Joshua Jackson points out, ciaranm now functions partially by proxy (using SBP, or others in his group). So I’m not sure he would be easily brushed aside.
And yes, as Brian points out, the atmosphere that (_I think_ ciaranm has brought about, although not exclusively) is turning people away. I’m certainly turned off from his behavior – from his dealings with ferringb in particular.
He simply isn’t polite, and puts people at odds with that base and cervile behavior. And I doubt ignoring is will help (hell, that’s what devrel attempted, no?).