XMMS Autopsy: Spoons vs. Self-Sufficiency

Apparently, some people who read my original XMMS post took away from it a conclusion that I had not made. To boot, these people have hung those conclusions around Diego’s neck. Even the fact that the forums thread on the subject has gone on for 14 pages astounds me. I even know of at least one person who has written of the entire Gentoo distribution based on that package removal.

So let’s stop with the nonsense for just a minute and absorb this post, shall we? First of all, it’s a fricken music player. Second of all — Gentoo is about choice. That does not mean that we, the annointed developers, should present you with every single choice. No, it means that you, as a Gentoo user, are on a platform that empowers you to create your own choices. Ladies and gentlemen, the very idea of Gentoo and Portage are to provide the tools to make your own linux distribution. If you don’t like that XMMS was taken away — then create your own overlay! It can be done, you know. In fact, there are tonnes of overlays published at http://overlays.gentoo.org.

So for all you people still inclined to send hate mail to Diego, I say this: get over yourselves. The decision to remove XMMS was never in question. It was going to happen. GTK+-1.2 is also leaving the tree. It is going to happen. I’m sorry, but that’s just how it is. For people who want xmms, and want to be the “portage maintainers” of it, feel free! Take what we had in portage, stick it in your overlay, advertise it, and go! Take on the issues of maintaining it yourselves. In all honesty, that’s what you should be doing instead of feeling all this negativity and projecting it towards people. You’re wasting your time, everyone else’s time and a whole lot of energy on criticising someone who certainly does not deserve it.

Anyway, I just wanted to inject a sense of perspective in the mini-hysteria. Most of all, I think this XMMS issue needs to be put to rest already. The horse be dead. Beating it like a pinata won’t get you anything sweet.

8 thoughts on “XMMS Autopsy: Spoons vs. Self-Sufficiency”

  1. Did anyone think to do stats on how much of an XMMS userbase that Gentoo had before pulling it? Being a majority of the distfiles.gentoo.org rotation I did, and the results did not fare well for the decision that was made.. Sure, it’s just a media player, but it was the most popular media player that happened to “just work” for a majority of the people on many arches, despite the few bugs that went unresolved.

    Anyway, if you want to look at the statistical popularity of the package it was a bad move. People leave Gentoo not because of a missing xmms but because this move gives them the message that Gentoo is no longer trying to suit the needs of the users, but rather the needs of the developers (which is fine if that’s what you want.. there are other distros out there). The manner in which it was handled publicly (at least on blog postings like this and the many others on the topic from other devs) just drive that point home further.

    Cheers,

    -C

  2. No longer implies that Gentoo was trying to suit the needs of users in the first place. That’s a matter of considerable debate, I suppose, but as far as I am aware, most of the early developers (at least through the first 60) joined Gentoo because they had an itch. They didn’t think of making a distro that would appeal to everyone, they were interested in something that appealed to them.

    I don’t know that there is some unifying vision behind Gentoo these days (where you can define “these days” as the post-Robbins era). But you can certainly read Daniel’s own vision in various documents, and you can refer to Aron Griffis’ beautiful expression of motivations in a post to the gentoo-dev mailing list 12-18 months ago. I’m pretty sure I’ve linked to that email in a previous blog post. I’ll dig up the link, anyway.

    The point is, if you’re thinking that Gentoo is a user-centric distribution rather than a developer-centric one, then you’re bound to be disappointed by it.

    Thus I would see that people leave because they feel disillusioned in some way by assuming a promise that has not been made.

  3. Just to add to my comment there: gentoo being a developer-centric distribution is exactly why I made this blog post — a developer-centric distro empowers the user. It doesn’t matter if XMMS is removed from portage. It does matter that there are enough users to resurrect it in some form.

    After all, that’s what it boils down to: the sound team did not have the time and energy to continuously patch a leaky package (just because it works fine for you, a user, does not mean it does for other users, and does not indicate the level of headaches that gentoo maintainers are going through in order to bring it to you). There were numerous calls for taking it over. Those calls were not answered. What option is left?

    Also, please note that there is no implication here that gentoo developers are on some higher plane. The only implication is that Gentoo’s focus is not the end-user, necessarily. Its focus is to be a platform that gives the user the tools necessary to mold it to their desire.

    And so, none of this reflects that developers and users have a divide. They shouldn’t. And there shouldn’t be elitism and rudeness from either set of people. But that’s a different blog post 🙂

  4. I even know of at least one person who has written of the entire Gentoo distribution based on that package removal.

    IMO you don’t want such people as Gentoo users in the first place.

    And speaking as a user, I agree with you and Diego completely on this issue. To quote Monty Python:

    Mr. Praline: It’s not pining, it’s passed on. This parrot is no more. It has ceased to be. It’s expired and gone to meet its maker. This is a late parrot. It’s a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If you hadn’t nailed it to the perch, it would be pushing up the daisies. It’s rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-parrot.

    For the malcontent out there, please substitute “parrot” with “XMMS”, and hopefully it’ll sink in.

  5. What’s that sudden need to get rid of old basic software? Do you think that *no* apps out there still use gtk1? It’s bound to always be a couple of them. Personally, the only one I recall using ocasionally nowadays is nero (I know there are better alternatives but not for *all* cases), but that’s just me, and I still can see past my belly. There are other people out there, with needs different from mine or yours. The package is already in and works as advertised (bugs included). So why remove it? To piss off some more people, until there’s only devs remaining? (the ones benefiting from the new-found dev-to-dev nature of gentoo, of couse).

    I’m sorry for the rant, but I feel sad about all this. clearly, something in gentoo needs to change. The bright side is that now I have a practical example for my discussions with a friend of mine about how anarchy leads nowhere.

  6. We should keep the following points in mind:

    1. The best development work is done for that selfish, scratch-an-itch-for-myself reason.

    In the early days, it did seem like you became a developer to fix something that bothered you. I think this is still mostly true, but the exposure of the project has attracted users who mistakenly expect to be served. As volunteer developers we have no such obligation.

    2. If it dies upstream and your distro is maintaining it, then you become the defacto upstream. You don’t want this because it consumes too many resources.

  7. Hi !
    Just discovered that I emerge -C’d my xmms by accident. I used xmms gladly and enjoyed it’s simplicity. My first real C code was for an xmms plugin =/(it was fun, was fun :).

    But sentiments aside, I have to agree that it was old.

    I’m looking at adocious/ other players right now, I’m a born optimists and feel that I will find a good replacement(Maybe this one will have a form of a mediaplayer ?).
    To all those ranters: I’m not qualified enough to put your opinions down. But one question: Why hasn’t xmms been growing(for that matter “modernized” could be a better word).

    Thanking the whole Gentoo Team.

    nuclearjoker

    P.S. One thing though: what players so many great plugins as XMMS had(/has) ?

    P.P.S. XMMS RIP, you’ll always stay a LEGEND.

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